For the paladin, his oath is what provides his power. The cleric, however, is granted strength by a Divine Being.
Yet there are more orders of clerics than just one. How can this be in a world where proof of your god's existence is instantly accessible by any mook with a holy symbol? RPG clerics live in a world where they walk by sight, not by faith.
There are some solutions to this, of course. One solution is to make all clerics worship the same deity. There cannot be more than one.
This is a little unsatisfying. But consistent.
If we wish to have more than one clerical order, following different gods, then it follows naturally that these deities cannot be all-powerful, and therefore not gods at all. If they were all-powerful, and also all true, then they could not all coexist logically. Zeus and Odin cannot be both god if both exist (as separate entities).
Therefore, then, clerics could gain their power by belief in a localized (more or less) entity which existed on a plane above their own. This is a different level (higher or lower?) than that which a warlock patron might occupy.
Clerics, of course, are gregarious, while monks are ascetics. I'm thinking that a leveled cleric would probably be a step up in whatever hierarchy exists from the local priest, but of course could certainly take up that mantle. A priest might be able to conjure some small healing magic or other stereotypically clerical things, but for the most part is responsible only for the spiritual journey of the local flock, whatever that might mean. Clerics are holy warriors with additional training from an established temple.
I don't really like monks. So I'll ignore them for now. I think clerics fit the role much better, without the edgy Bruce Lee vibes.
So what do they worship? I was browsing around and found the Book of Urantia, an absolutely insane mystical document of no religious value, but it's got some good inspiration for worldbuilding. Paper 85 identifies 6 progressive sources of worship:
- Stones
- Plants
- Animals
- Elements
- Heavenly bodies
- Man
Of these, elemental forces are the most attractive to me in terms of a cosmology. However, I must recognize the extreme difficulty of putting myself in the shoes of an ancient man who worshiped, say, bears or fire. That said, I suspect the desire to anthropomorphize was still strong in those days. So the lightning that destroys trees and people becomes the Father of Storms and we'll give him a name, Ja-Pater.
Ritual worship involves invoking the power's favor or appeasing it in some way. The question arises as to whether the cleric's powers are dependent on correctly approaching the power. Would schisms arise? If so, wouldn't it immediately be obvious that one side picked the wrong theological formula? Can a rogue cleric be stripped of his magic by his superiors as punishment for some crime against the deity? Food for thought.
Ultimately, clerics must operate in some kind of organized (named) religion, whether it's a structured church or a looser collective like shamanism. I'm not sure yet how to determine a local religion procedurally, or if that's something to save for a rainy day. It's not going to matter that much for my planned model of empire growth.
Ultimately, clerics must operate in some kind of organized (named) religion, whether it's a structured church or a looser collective like shamanism. I'm not sure yet how to determine a local religion procedurally, or if that's something to save for a rainy day. It's not going to matter that much for my planned model of empire growth.
I see one big flaw with your argument / reasoning. You are coming at this with a modern Western viewpoint influenced by 2000 years of Christianity. A being does not have to be all powerful or all knowing to be worshipped as a god. You compare Zeus and Odin, what about Zeus and hera? If Zeus is a god, so is hera and many other Gods besides. Yes monotheism does solve a lot of problems for clerical orders and such, but that is not the only possibility. A god in a non-Christian religion doesn't need to be all powerful, there are other characteristics which make them a god.
ReplyDeleteAlso the idea that people in dnd have proof their god exists and don't need faith because spells is nonsense. Many religions in the modern world believe there is proof their religion is correct, and can point to miracles by their religious leaders as evidence of their holy calling. The source of the cleric's power can just as easily be disputed as saying a miracle in the modern world is due to natural causes and not god. Clerics need faith in order to cast a spell in the first place, otherwise they would never make the effort.
That's part of my point, it's difficult if not impossible to conceive of these entities as a Greek in 600 BC might have.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean to imply that the common man (or the cleric) has no need of faith. Faith is more than simply believing something exists; it also implies that you *trust* that being to the exclusion of others. Yea, the Moon is cool but I trust in the power of the Sea.
You make a really interesting point about natural causes. Regardless of what I decide is going on behind the scenes, surely there would be much dissent in the game world about coincidences and dark powers rather than what this cleric claims he's getting his lightning bolts from.
I didn't mean to be belligerent, it's just so many people who play DND talk about how there is proof of gods existing because a cleric can cast spells, while they ignore modern religious beliefs in miracles and such.
ReplyDeleteNo harm, no foul. I think it's a good point, though. The cleric's belief may be mistaken, or misguided, or entirely true. And the cleric and the people may disagree on the source or validity of the miracle.
ReplyDeleteYour view of 'Religion' is too superficial.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kjd-imc.org/hall-of-fame/setting-design/polyhedral-pantheons/
Take a look at KJDavies stuff for more ideas.